Commissioner Adams & Senator Brad Avakian Lead Discussion on Sustainable Communities

"Sustainable must also stand for financially self-sustainable and without taxpayer subsidies. Therefore sustainable communities must require only the users of alternative transport options to pay for those options such as bicycle infrastructure and streetcars."

I am going to have to disagree with you here. Taxpayer subsidies are needed to increase alternative transportation modes such as biking and mass transport.

With regional growth on the rise, our aging infrastructure is just going to get more congested.

What I think everyone needs to realize is:

Taxpayer subsidies used to educate citizens about the benefits of alternatives other than the automobile and the expansion of alternative mode infrastructure is the interest of everyone in the region.

To put it simply:

More people using alternative transportation modes = less people using cars = less congestion = cleaner environment, healither economy and more sustainable communities.

Daniel: To put it simply:
More people using alternative transportation modes = less people using cars = less congestion = cleaner environment,
JK: Cleaner how? Hybrid cars use less energy (pollution generally follows energy usage) than buses or light rail (per passenger-mile), so it would seem to be best to spend money subsidizing these instead of an energy hog like mass transit (comparatively speaking.)

Daniel: healither economy and
JK: how does slowing commute time (transit is usually slower than driving) improve the economy?
see: DebunkingPortland.com/Transit/BusVsCarTEDB.htm

Daniel: more sustainable communities.
JK: How is the higher cost of transit compared to driving a car more sustainable? (Trimet users only pay about 20% of their actual cost, not counting light rail construction)
How is the higher energy usage of transit, compared to hybrid cars, more sustainable?
See: DebunkingPortland.com/Transit/Cost-Cars-Transit(2005).htm

Thanks
JK

JK: Hybrid cars use less energy (pollution generally follows energy usage) than buses or light rail (per passenger-mile), so it would seem to be best to spend money subsidizing these...

I too think a subsidy for those buying hybrids is a great idea.

Wilbur: Portland needs to think big!
JK: Porltand is thinking big. We are spending big bucks on smart growth. Just last year, according to the PDC,
we gave $20.6 million to developers instead of city services,
we gave$13.8 million to developers instead of Multnomah County services and bridges,
we gave $11.4 million to developers, instead of the Portland School District
( page 30 of PDC's Annual Urban Renewal Report: pdc.us/pdf/ura/urban-renewal-report-06-07.pdf)

Wilbur: Get rid of downtown freeways! Move those ugly polluting eyesores to the west side through Beaverton. This will also encourage a more vibrant and alive downtown sector which Portland desperately needs.
JK: You don’t appear to understand the vital role transportation serves in increasing our standard of living, or are you one of those that think modern industrial society should be eliminated?

Wilbur: Inner Portland has enough room from infill and urban renewal to quadruple its density and population.
JK: Why would we want to do this? It will only increase congestion, pollution and journey to work time. That is what happens as density increases.

Wilbur: Encourage more mid and high rises downtown and more condo developments in inner NE and SE.
JK: We already are. That is why we take over $50 million from schools, police and basic services ands give it to developers EVERY YEAR. See above.

Wilbur: It also is very important to mention that Manhattanites have 1/3 the carbon footprint of the average American because they can easily walk to work or take mass transit. Their shared condo and apt. walls also conserve lots of heating and cooling energy
JK: Let me be very clear: IF PORTLANDERS WANTED TO BE MANHATTAN, WE’D MOVE THERE. There is zero chance that Portland will ever be Manhattan. Jakarta maybe, but never Manhattran. BTW, what % of greenhouse effect is due to CO2? What % of CO2 emission is man caused?

Wilbur: Needless to say they all take SkyTrain into Vancouver every morning saving them gas, time and highway congestion.
JK: Are you saying that every single person in ALL of those buildings to to Vancouver EVERY day? None are retired? None stay at home? None work at home? None work elsewhere? Please quit lying to us. BTW, which government agency, developer or consultant do you work for?

Thanks
JK

We all know youre an indirectly paid advocate of Big Oil and their agendas of more highways, more cars more sprawl,less ELECTRIC mass transit and less Smart Growth. The little they give to developers is a great investment for future property tax collection. Do you think Portland is getting its land value out of a low grade industrial district on the east side of the river? If this was decently developed they could pull in 10 times the property tax they are now.

Freeways dont belong in a downtown setting. Vancouver BC has none! If Portland had the guts it would move these monstrosities to the Beaverton side which has been crying for a N-S freeway for years.
If it werent for the Big Oil lobby we would have a modernized train system by now to move much more of our freight which can move it at a fraction of the cost.

Downtown density would DECREASE congestion! Thats what happens when the downtown workers are close enough to walk or hop a streetcar to work! No-brainer there.

Big oil also pays its think tanks to try to deny global warming so we already know where youre coming from there.

No they dont ALL commute to downtown every day but a probably a majority of them do.

No I'm not a developer and I have absolutely no monetary vested intereest in what I'm saying unlike you. You Libertarians are really a sorry lot.

Wilbur We all know youre an indirectly paid advocate of Big Oil and their agendas
JK: Prove it or shut up!

Why are you hiding your identity?

Thanks
JK

You, like R. OToole, are a local representative of the Big Oil founded and funded "Cato Institute" think tank which has as one of their main propaganda priorities to criticize ELECTRIC mass transit systems.

"Financial firms now contributing generously to Cato include American Express, Chase Manhattan Bank, Chemical Bank, Citicorp/Citibank, Commonwealth Fund, Prudential Securities and Salomon Brothers. Energy conglomerates include: Chevron Companies, Exxon Company, Shell Oil Company and Tenneco Gas, as well as the American Petroleum Institute, Amoco Foundation and Atlantic Richfield Foundation. "

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=CATO_Institute

PortlandSUCKS: How "vibrant" is it going to be when everyone is crammed into tiny pigeonholes to live in and all the businesses are driven out?
JK: Apparently you missed this example of Portland’s vibrancy: A Portland Police officer said: "The MAX has been a living nightmare for us," Preston said. "I would not ride it at night -- and I'm armed all the time.

www.oregonlive.com/portland/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/portland_news/11898825037090.xml&coll=7&thispage=1

Thanks
JK

Apparently he was out of line. The PPD isnt commenting and TriMet says MAX is extremely safe with only 3 verbal reports a day of trouble. Face it, MAX is about ten times safer than driving. There hasnt been one rider death on MAX yet! Think of all the hundreds killed in car accidents since MAX opened.

But the incidence of crime is increasing dramatically in the suburbs. A 16% increase in one year on the east side suburbs and this isnt due to MAX as MAX has been there for 21 years!

"Portland Police refuse to comment on Sgt. Preston's remarks, saying he was speaking his own mind and did not represent the thoughts and opinions of the Portland Police Bureau.

Meanwhile, TriMet is confounded by the sergeant's comments.

"When I read the article it was surprising and concerning," said TriMet Operations Manager Peggy Hanson.

Hanson says each day there's an average of only one report of verbal or physical violence for every 100,000 riders on the train."

You've just opened yourself up to the canard that Light Rail kills more people than cars. It's amazing with the "facts" you can come up with if you're constantly cooking the books!

No book cooking required.

Light rail, in Portland, kills people at tree times the rate of cars on a per passenger-mile basis.

The facts and data sources are all laid out at:
DebunkingPortland.com/Transit/MAXSafetyChart.html

Be sure to click on the links to see the original data to prove that Wilber is just another transit hack telling lies to coverup rail’s problems..

Thanks
JK

Sounds like cooked books to me.
I wrote "Face it, MAX is about ten times safer than driving. There hasnt been one RIDER death on MAX yet! Think of all the hundreds killed in car accidents since MAX opened." Did you catch that Jim? Not one RIDER has been killed! Your stats are therefore completely irrelevant to the argument of whether its safer to ride MAX or drive!

And no I'm not being paid like you are by Big Oil.
You, like R. OToole, are a local representative of the Big Oil founded and funded Cato Institute which has as one of their main priorities to criticize electric mass transit systems.

"Financial firms now contributing generously to Cato include American Express, Chase Manhattan Bank, Chemical Bank, Citicorp/Citibank, Commonwealth Fund, Prudential Securities and Salomon Brothers. Energy conglomerates include: Chevron Companies, Exxon Company, Shell Oil Company and Tenneco Gas, as well as the American Petroleum Institute, Amoco Foundation and Atlantic Richfield Foundation. "

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=CATO_Institute

Wilbur: Did you catch that Jim? Not one RIDER has been killed! Your stats are therefore completely irrelevant to the argument of whether its safer to ride MAX or drive!
JK: OK, you got me - if you can make aboard without getting killed, you are fairly safe. MAX kills its riders before and after they ride on MAX and kills, children on bikes and other innocent bystanders. The net result, on per-passenger-mile basis is that MAX kills about three times as many people as cars.

Wilbur: And no I'm not being paid like you are by Big Oil. You, like R. OToole, are a local representative of the Big Oil founded and funded Cato Institute...
JK: That is a lie and you know it you twit. But I understand your dilemma: mass transit is so expensive that you have to hide the facts, partly by attacking the messenger so that people will forget. Lets revisit some facts:

MAX kill people at about three times the rate of cars.
MAX costs about five times the cost of driving when you include construction costs.
BUSES cost more than driving a car. They only appear cheap because the taxpayers pick up 80% of the tab.
BUSES DO NOT save energy compared to small cars.

Thanks
JK

I see comparing numbers from different sources fit your predetermined outcome. Fortunately most people are intelligent enough to see through your quackery.

David Dean: I see comparing numbers from different sources fit your predetermined outcome. Fortunately most people are intelligent enough to see through your quackery.
JK: Please provide an example of your accusation where the outcome would be affected.

As to MAX killings. I used local deaths data from Trimet and local newspapers. The automobile deaths is also a local number, so what’s you problem?

The fact that the result is a three to one difference, means that one of the data sets could be off by 2:1 without affecting the overall conclusion that MAX KILLS AT A HIGHER RATE THAN CARS.

MAX also costs much more than driving at a system average of $0.43 per passenger mile USING TRIMET DATA (not including right of way construction, station construction etc.)
For comparison driving a car costs much less at $0.331 per VEHICLE-mile using national data, or $0.25 per passenger-mile at typical Portland occupancy.(including almost all road expenses.)

MAX is also much slower at about 1 ½ hour from Gateway top Hillsboro.

Thanks
JK

You are trying to compare 19 deaths over a 20 year period and include a case of a suicidal bridge jump. Different methodologies, different geographical areas, different time frames. and enormously disparate numbers. Everything about your comparison screams that it is a terrible comparison to make, and yet you persist because it matches your predetermined outcome. You don't seem to realize that your dishonesty undermines your own cause.