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Bicycles, Cars, Obesity, Land Use, and Healthcare Spending: What's the Connection?

 Biking increases longevity.

It is widely known that obesity is an epidemic in America.  Just a few years ago,  the U.S. Surgeon General, Dr. David Statcher, announced that obesity had surpassed smoking as the leading cause of disease and death in the country.  And a growing body of research tells us that even low and moderate physical activity - like walking and bicycling - significantly contributes to individual health and cuts one's chances of becoming obese. 

The question that I want to address in this post is: how should this knowledge play into public policy decisions, particularly in regards to transportation and urban design? 

My general feeling is that it should factor in far more than it has in the past (which is absolutely not at all).  The built environment has a big effect on people's activity levels, and the planners and engineers of decades past have engineered a society in which it is actually difficult to NOT be sedentary. 

And that isn't efficient nor optimal.  Indeed, everyone in this accidentally engineered sedentary society is also burdened by an "obesity tax" and an "inactivity tax."  Whether or not you personally are obese, you will definitely pay this tax levied upon you via obese peers, since insurance works by spreading healthcare costs to everyone.

But before we get ahead of ourselves, let's lay out the important points and supporting evidence to see where it takes us...

1. Obesity is a major health epidemic that is costing the citizens of America (through both its public and private healthcare systems) billions of dollars. 

A 2004 study (available below) recently found that in Oregon alone, annual Medicare and Medicaid expenditures on obesity-related health complications (e.g. not including private insurance costs) totaled $325 million!  Of course, Medicare and Medicaid are government programs that we all pay for via payroll taxes. 

In addition to this more easily documented expenditure of public resources, obese persons with private insurance also end up costing others money. 

What exactly does this cost add up to?

This is something that has been the subject of much investigation since obesity rates keep rising and due to the fact that obese people tend to consume a lot more healthcare services.

A 2005 analysis printed in Health Affairs concluded that obese people spend about 37.5% more on healthcare each year, or around $730. This does not include overweight people, however, simply the morbidly obese. The analysis found that overweight people who are not obese spend roughly an additional $250 a year.

The RAND Corporation has investigated how much this increased medical spending by overweight and obese people costs other people. While siting recent research that found the average taxpayer spends about $175 a year to finance obesity-related medical costs of those on Medicare and Medicaid alone, their analysis concluded that the "obesity externality" imposes a welfare cost of about $150 per capita.  And for what it's worth, I judge this to be a pretty a conservative estimate.* 

2. Because of our insurance system people don't pay for the full costs of their own healthcare.  However, they do help pay for the healthcare costs of other people.

As was touched on above, obese people share the costs of their medical care with those who are not overweight.   (Of course this is a generality- there are many exceptions, though the general rule still holds.)  The main reason that obese people do not pay for the full costs associated with their obesity is insurance (whether public or private).

The whole point of health insurance is for healthy people to share the risk of healthcare costs with less healthy people. In effect, this means that healthy people subsidize the healthcare costs of unhealthy people. When the illnesses are random and the product of things beyond one's control - brain tumors, accidents, many communicable diseases, etc.- this system works great.

But what about when people's lifestyle choices are the cause of their healthcare costs? In this case, you can argue that there is a market failure, since some people can indulge in lifestyle choices that are fun in the short-run but costly (in terms of healthcare costs) over the long haul - and they do not have to pay for the full costs of their personal decisions.

By society sharing the costs of healthcare that is necessitated by behavioral choices (say, smoking), those partaking in the behaviors (in this case, smokers) are relieved of a potentially potent disincentive to the behavior (the full cost of their healthcare)- and economic theory says that by removing these costs, you affect one's decision making. 

That's a classic market failure.  The conclusion: especially when obesity is the consequence of personal decisions, obese people create negative externalities - in the form of a healthcare bill- that everyone else picks up.

So, right now, non-smokers subsidize smokers, risk-averse people subsidize thrill seekers, and physically active, normal-weight people subsidize sedentary and obese people, to name a few of the obvious examples.  The bottom line is that obese people create significant costs that are passed along to their healthy peers. 

3a. A leading cause of obesity is a sedentary lifestyle, and the amount of time you spend in a car is correlated to the likelihood that you are overweight or obese.  Conversely, the amount of time you spend walking or bicycling is correlated with a decreased chance that you are overweight or obese. 

3b. The amount of time you spend in the care is linked with the type of built environment one lives in. People in suburbs tend to drive more than urbanites (who walk), and tend to be more overweight and obese, as well - all other things equal.

It should come as no surprise that when you walk and bike regularly, you are less likely to be obese.  And from there, it should not be a great leap to realize that where people live has a large influence on how often they bike, walk, take transit, or drive. 

There have been a series of studies that actually link driving with obesity.  Likewise, there have been studies that link living in the suburbs (where you are more apt to dive) with obesity, and a decreased likelihood of obesity if you live in a walkable urban area.   This should come as no surprise since in sprawling urban and suburban areas where few travel options exist, cars are now used for 80% of trips less than one mile in length!

A recent 2004 study titled "Obesity Relationships with Community Design, Physical Activity, and Time Spent in Cars," written by Lawrence D. Frank, PhD, Martin A. Andresen, MA, and Thomas L. Schmid, PhD that was published in the American Journal of Preventative Medicine found that the amount of time you spend in a car and the type of community you live in are good predictors of whether or not you will be obese, even after adjusting for race, income, education, and other factors.  You can read this study in its whole form below, but the results state (emphasis added):

"Results: Land-use mix had the strongest association with obesity (BMI30 kg/m2), with each quartile increase being associated with a 12.2% reduction in the likelihood of obesity across gender and ethnicity. Each additional hour spent in a car per day was associated with a 6% increase in the likelihood of obesity. Conversely, each additional kilometer walked per day was associated with a 4.8% reduction in the likelihood of obesity."

The American Journal of Health Promotion recently published a study, "Relationship Between Urban Sprawl and Physical Activity, Obesity, and Morbidity" written by Reid Ewing, Tom Schmid, Richard Killingsworth, Amy Zlot, and Stephen Raudenbush.  It found that "after controlling for demographic and behavioral covariates" the amount of sprawl where one lived had statistically "significant associations with minutes walked, obesity, Body Mass Index, , and hypertension. Residents of sprawling counties were likely to walk less during leisure time, weigh more, and have greater prevalence of hypertension than residents of compact counties. At the metropolitan level, sprawl was similarly associated with minutes walked."

4. This means that car drivers -all other things equal- create negative externalities for society at large that bicyclists, pedestrians, and transit riders (who also tend to walk more) DO NOT create.

Those who tend to bicycle will cost their peers less in healthcare costs or "the obesity tax," since they will consume less healthcare services and will actually help foot the bill for their unhealthy peers.  Those who tend to drive the most, however, will cost their peers the most, all other things equal.

The types of cities we build for ourselves really affect the transportation choices people make.  And right now, the choices planners from the past have made means that we currently live in an accidentally engineered society that promotes driving and a sedentary lifestyle, despite the fact that this creates a whole host of problems, health and otherwise. 

6. The public policy that will most reduce everyone's "obesity tax" -that is largely born from a sendentary lifestyle  and a reliance on driving - then, is to promote transit-rich, walkable, bike-friendly environments where people can get to where they need to go without driving a car.  This will successfully reduce the nation's healthcare costs, which will save everyone money.

 I am sure that there will be a lot of people who will want to squabble with specific points I've made here, but the main take-away is  simple: that everyone benefits when people take care of their health.  And so, everyone benefits when people choose to  be more active and jump on a bicycle instead of driving an automobile.

 I guess this is also an attempt to illustrate that transportation choices create more costs and benefits for society at large than are easily and superficially captured in the marketplace.  There are a lot of things (pollution, health, etc.) that do not get explicitly factored into the conversation about what the ideal transportation mode split is and what our transportation investment decisions should be,  since nobody has really taken a look to see what these costs or benefits add up to.

But regardless of whether the research has actually yet been done, there are real costs and real benefits that should (I'd argue must) play a role in our conversations about the kind of world we want to live in and build together. 

 Read the studies below.  Then share your thoughts.

 *(To me, this $150 figure seems to be a pretty conservative estimate, though while I believe that my online search of the academic literature was fairly thorough, I admit it was not exhaustive.  One issue that I think brings RAND's estimates in on the low end of the scale is that the authors assume a rather high coinsurance rate, which influences their findings.  The authors assume a 17.5% coinsurance rate, when in 2004 the average coinsurance percentage paid for a doctor visit for employees enrolled in employer-sponsored health insurance was 18.6 percent, and this does not take into account taxpayer funded healthcare like Medicare and Medicaid.(1)  This means that their model likely understates the costs that people who are not covered by health insurance pass onto the people paying their healthcare bill.  When you consider those who have public insurance and those who don't pay for any of their care at all [including especially costly emergency room visits], this issue  of a coinsurance rate that includes public subsidies may lead to a significantly different finding.)


AttachmentSize
OBSESITY Health care costs hlthaff.w3.219v1.pdf96.49 KB
State Expenditures on Obesity 18.pdf222.81 KB
(Obesity Health Insurance Externality)RAND_WR340.pdf294.61 KB
RAND- Obesity Trends & Spending.pdf105.18 KB
Car Use, Land Use, and Obesity.pdf375.46 KB
Relationship between Urban Sprawl and Physical Activity, Obesity and Morbidity AJHP-18-01-EWING.pdf133.54 KB

Europe's going there too....

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Roland. This is why 53 European health ministers recently committed to action on obesity, including bicycle-priority streets and safe routes to school for kids.

Read more about their action.

Surely we can do as well as the Bulgarians and Macedonians...


Another suggestion to learn

Another suggestion to learn from third world countries. Be careful you don't end up duplicating their low standard of living.

Thanks
JK


Bike hater...

bike hater, bike hater, bike hater...


As many of you know, I

As many of you know, I constantly complain that Portland’s planners want us to become more like, the lower income, less productive and falling behind us, Europe.

Just now as I was correcting the sound levels of a video from the recent American Dream Conference I finally sound something in Europe to emulate!

I came across this claim: Germany has drivers licenses for bikes. Seems even 8 year olds have to TAKE THE TEST and it was described as being fairly difficult.

Didn’t mention if there was a fee.

Thanks
JK


Have you been?

Jim,

Have you been to Europe? If so, when and where? There is "data" and then there is experience that would suggest that in many ways Europe has a higher standard of living than the US. Check out Norway sometime.

Thanks


Europhile: Check out Norway

Europhile: Check out Norway sometime.
JK: I did. Here is my post from a while back (Only two European countries beat us, in this case by just a little. We are leaving Europe, overall, in the dust as we pull ahead with a much faster growth rate and much lower un-employment - 2:1 ratios are a big deal):

From the CIA world fact book for GDP, unemployment and growth. factbook2006/rankorder/2004rank.txt:

Rank--Country--------- GDP - per capita (PPP)----Date of Information
6------- United States----------$ 41,800------- 2005 est.
30----- European Union------ $ 28,100------- 2005 est.

Rank---Country---------GDP - real growth rate(%)---Date of Information
124-----United States----------3.50----------2005 est.
176-----European Union-------1.70---------2005 est.

Rank----Country-------Unemployment rate(%)-------Date of Information
48------United States-------5.10---------2005 est.
90------European Union----9.40---------2005 est.
(Only Luxembourg and Norway beat us, at $55,600 and $42,300 respectively)

Note the huge differences in income, unemployment and growth rate. The unemployment rate is almost twice ours and growth about ½ of ours. The lower growth rate means they are falling further behind.

Warning for Portland’s planners:
Emulating losers can be harmful to our city’s well being.

Thanks
JK


Europe is More productive per hour

Jim,

European labor is more productive than american labor if you look at how much they produce per hour.

The reason they produce less than us over the whole year because they actually take vacations, something lost in this country many years ago, have much shorter work weeks, and more holidays.


Roland: European labor is

Roland: European labor is more productive than american labor if you look at how much they produce per hour.
JK: I’d like to see your source for that. The reason I ask is because the average difference is around 30% and I find it hard to believe that Europeans spend 30% of the year on vacation. That would be 3 ½ months.

Unless their vacations are increasing, that would not account for the fact that they are falling behind us as evidenced by their lower growth rate.

I think the answer is simple: excessive government interference is people’s and business’ daily lives.

Thanks
JK


Its true

I'll find the source, but I am certain what I said was right due to research I did for my thesis.

I believe that my data source for my thesis was the International Labour Organization. It's really the only data set that I found that is both reliable and comprehensive over both time and across a wide set countries.

In all industrialized nations besides the US, there has been a continued downtrend in the length of the workweek (to abotu 30-35 hours average), whereas in America, the trend has been that total hours worked per week is going up. This is true even if you take into account more women entering the workforce over the past 30 years. Even controling for that, people in America today work both longer hours and take less vacation than they used to years ago, and also when compared with European countries (and Japan, as well).

You shoudl be able to find this yourself at http://laborsta.ilo.org/


You shoudl be able to find

You shoudl be able to find this yourself at http://laborsta.ilo.org/

JK:If it is that simple, why don't you provide for all of the lurkers and the history record by actually finding it?

Thanks
JK


Because I am busy working.

I check the blog sporadically to keep on top of it (more or less), but am working and in meetings for most of the day.

It is more of a priority for me (and Sam) to make sure that the projects and initiatives originating from this office and within PDOT - are done well and advance the public interest. And it has been really busy these past couple months, and these past couple weeks in particular.

Not to be rude, but it does seem that you have more than enough time to do this sort of research yourself, especially if you pride yourself on being "fact based." I know that it won't be data you want to see, since it will not confirm your existing ideology, but you should look at it nonetheless.


I see we are getting deeper

I see we are getting deeper into social engineering. Roland, you forget that Sam's job is to serve the people, not manipulate them.

PS: Your data is flawed - more later.

No thanks
JK


Social Engineering? No: Good Management

I call it getting the most out of our existing right of way. I call it giving people more travel options not less. I call it promoting good health so I don't have to subsidize your medical problems through higher insurance premiums. Jim, your point of view has been abandoned by even the most Republican and Libertarian state in the US: Arizona. You, Terry, Steve, mmarvell and few other right-wingers cling to them but common sense is not on your side.


Someone who is Nuts said: I

Someone who is Nuts said: I call it getting the most out of our existing right of way.
JK: Yeah, great idea subsidize TODs a couple thousand per year to save $175 per year. No wonder Oregon is failing.

Someone who is Nuts said: I call it giving people more travel options not less.
JK: Light rail DOES NOT INCREASE OPTIONS. THAT IS A TRIMET LIE because they always discontinue the bus line where the build the toy train.

Someone who is Nuts said: I call it promoting good health so I don't have to subsidize your medical problems through higher insurance premiums.
JK: Yeah, great idea subsidize TODs a couple thousand per year to save $175 per year. No wonder Oregon is failing.

Someone who is Nuts said: Jim, your point of view has been abandoned by even the most Republican and Libertarian state in the US: Arizona.
JK: That will lower their standard of living, just like it does in Oregon. That is part of why we are national leaders in un-employment.

Someone who is Nuts said: You, Terry, Steve, mmarvell and few other right-wingers cling to them but common sense is not on your side.
JK: Don’t call me a right winger you PDC/Planning Dept/Trimet jerk.

Thanks
JK


Take the pledge

Will you agree not to use any public transportation mode that does not pay for itself in user taxes? If yes, Jim, no more driving your car. I didn't think so you right-wing extremist pretending to be something else.


Jim Car-a-lot Will you agree

Jim Car-a-lot Will you agree not to use any public transportation mode that does not pay for itself in user taxes?
JK: I don’t.

Jim Car-a-lot If yes, Jim, no more driving your car.
JK: Wrong. Cars pay their own way in Portland. It is transit that only pays 19% of its own way in Portland. Why don’t you check the numbers?

JK: But suppose cars were subsidized? That would be a case of everyone subsidizing something that over 80% of the people use, unlike transit which is subsidized by all but used only by a tiny minority of the people. Some of whome are so arrogant that they think they are better than car users even though they are wasting energy, money and polluting more than small cars. (Yes I admit a lot of cars are not small.)

Jim Car-a-lot I didn't think so you right-wing extremist pretending to be something else.
JK: Don’t call me right wing you commie.

Thanks
JK


Source!?

JK: "Cars pay their own way in Portland."

Mr. Car-a-lot: What is your source data for this?

Be careful, your reputation for knowing everyhting about transporation is on the line...


Car-a-lot : JK: "Cars pay

Car-a-lot :
JK: "Cars pay their own way in Portland."

Mr. Car-a-lot: What is your source data for this?

Be careful, your reputation for knowing everyhting about transporation is on the line...

JK: Conversations with three different city employees in finance and transportation.
Also a national survey, perhaps from Brookings.

You have any reliable counter source?
JK


I see we are getting stupider

Yo JK -- your grammar is flawed. And you always make up data, instead of providing well-footnoted research like this.

And why is supporting anything but the car "social engineering?" Fact is giving away free roadspace to any car that comes is the biggest social engineering. And that's STILL by far the biggest part of PDOT's budget.

Sam's job IS to serve the people -- not subsidize pollution that causes record levels of childhood asthma, not to encourage a system that kills 1000 Oregonians a year, not to subsidize global warming, etc. He's standing up for real, healthy choices and should be proud of it.


Please Explain

"3a. A leading cause of obesity is a sedentary lifestyle, and the amount of time you spend in a car is correlated to the likelihood that you are overweight or obese. Conversely, the amount of time you spend walking or bicycling is correlated with a decreased chance that you are overweight or obese."

Correlation does not necessarily mean one thing causes the other. Only one of those studies listed above says anything about the built environment being a predictor of obesity--and it doesn't even go as far as to say the built environment causes obesity.

What is the point of using these data as a platform to encourage density? Aren't there other, more compelling reasons?


Skinny City: What is the

Skinny City: What is the point of using these data as a platform to encourage density? Aren't there other, more compelling reasons?
JK: No.

Thanks
JK


RolandWhile siting recent

RolandWhile siting recent research that found the average taxpayer spends about $175 a year to finance obesity-related medical costs of those on Medicare and Medicaid alone, their analysis concluded that the "obesity externality" imposes a welfare cost of about $150 per capita. And for what it's worth, I judge this to be a pretty a conservative estimate.*
JK: Of course an average TOD living unit costs around $35,000 more than low density construction. That is $256 per month for 30 years at 8% which is a heck of a lot more expensive than your saving of $175 per year.

Please let people be free.

Thanks
JK


Right-wing extremist

Mr. Car-a-lot: you hate bikes, you hate TODs, you hate transit, you love your car: we get it. Your numbers are wrong.


Jim Car-a-lot: Your numbers

Jim Car-a-lot: Your numbers are wrong.
JK: Prove it.
BTW: I’m still waiting for even one mistake that you found over at the ADC. Or were you just blowing more planner hot air?

Thanks
JK


"Cars pay their own way in Portland."

You: "I’m still waiting for even one mistake that you found over at the ADC." We can start with your statement that: "Cars pay their own way in Portland."


You didn't answer the

You didn't answer the question


JK, Please cite the

JK,

Please cite the reference for the statistics you bandy about. And please, don't let those biased institues The Thoreau Institute or the American Dream Coalition do your talking.

I don't subscribe to organizations that take money from members of the John Birch Society, can you say that same?

Thanks.


Data: Please cite the

Data: Please cite the reference for the statistics you bandy about.
JK: TOD cost premium came from Metro.

Data: And please, don't let those biased institues The Thoreau Institute or the American Dream Coalition do your talking.
JK: If you know of any inaccurate facts from them, please let me know & I’ll make an effort to get it corrected. (Or you could yourself : their email address is on the web site) Otherwise please don’t defame someone just because you disagree with them. At least they are pushing freedom, which is more than you can say about their opponents.

PS: Do you have a real name?

Thanks
JK


Data Part 2

JK: TOD cost premium came from Metro.

That is not an exact source, but thanks for playing. Of course as you well know proponants of TOD suggest that housing and transportation costs should be considered together, in which case TOD comes out ahead. I understand that there is an argument against this. However for someone who calls others on the "facts" you seem to play pretty loose.

JK: If you know of any inaccurate facts from them, please let me know & I’ll make an effort to get it corrected. (Or you could yourself : their email address is on the web site) Otherwise please don’t defame someone just because you disagree with them. At least they are pushing freedom, which is more than you can say about their opponents.

Freedom is not a term that you (or the American Dream Coalition) have the power to define, thank goodness. There are plenty of inaccurate facts and biases at both TLI and the ADC as with any site. They are pushing an AGENDA like the groups you oppose. To suggest otherwise is not straight forward.

Why are you hung up on names and throwing spin that has nothing to do with FACTS or the argument? Do you work in advertising?

The groups I support do not take funding from supporters of the John Birch Society. Can you say the same?


Person who is hiding behind

Person who is hiding behind pseudo name of Please Of course as you well know proponants of TOD suggest that housing and transportation costs should be considered together, in which case TOD comes out ahead.
JK: Not really, it just shifts the transport cost from the user to the public. That is called welfare. (I assume you know that the public picks up 80% of the cost of tranist here.) The public also picks up 10 years of public services for most TODs due to their tax abatements.

Person who is hiding behind pseudo name of Please However for someone who calls others on the "facts" you seem to play pretty loose.
JK: Provide an example. If you are talking about the cost of TODS, why don’t you dig up some cost figures of your own.

Person who is hiding behind pseudo name of Please Freedom is not a term that you (or the American Dream Coalition) have the power to define, thank goodness.
JK: Now you have trouble with the definition of freedom?

Person who is hiding behind pseudo name of Please There are plenty of inaccurate facts and biases at both TLI and the ADC as with any site.
JK: Name a few or quit you accusations. What is TLI?

Person who is hiding behind pseudo name of Please They are pushing an AGENDA like the groups you oppose. To suggest otherwise is not straight forward.
JK: They freely admit their agenda is more freedom, unlike the other side which advocates more state control of people’s lives.

Person who is hiding behind pseudo name of Please Why are you hung up on names and throwing spin that has nothing to do with FACTS or the argument? Do you work in advertising?
JK: Sounds like a good description of what you are doing here. Do you work in the planning field?

Person who is hiding behind pseudo name of Please The groups I support do not take funding from supporters of the John Birch Society. Can you say the same?
JK: It is the facts that count, not where the funding comes from. How do you feel about the president of a mutual fund company (that invests in the energy field) making statements about global warming? Would you believe him? Or would you look at the facts that he presents?

Thanks
JK


Person who is hiding behind

Person who is hiding behind pseudo name of Please Of course as you well know proponants of TOD suggest that housing and transportation costs should be considered together, in which case TOD comes out ahead.........However for someone who calls others on the "facts" you seem to play pretty loose.
JK: You might find this study informative. It shows the cost of density with real world, not theoretical data. Note that it is a few years old, so you will have to adjust the prices upward.

http://www.hdc1.org/downloads/AHCS-analysis.pdf

I’ll find the exact Metro link later.

Have fun
JK


The numbers dwindle

As the rains and cold weather have set in, the number of bikes has fallen faster than leaves off the trees - man, I've been itching to write that line; however it's true. Outside of a VERY small hardcore bunch of riders, the numbers have dwindled exponentially.

Health is a good thing, eating right is a good thing, but the occasional burger won't kill you, riding in 40 degree weather, getting soaking wet - MIGHT kill you; both in the form of being harder to see (in the dark, rain and muck) and in the form of contracting pneumonia.

Again, I don't care what you lifestyle is, what I do mind is the lack of tolerance for those who's lifestyles differ from the ones that someone thinks they 'ought' to be.


Yea, Las Vegas, baby...

mmmarvel, I still laugh to myself every time I see your blogs...I remember the time you said Portland should be more like Las Vegas...you even suggested that we put multi million-dollar pedestrian overpasses or West Burnside...Now, in textbook passive-aggressive style, while the City of Portland is spending most of its money promoting auto travel you turn around and say that because Sam supports modest funding (1.5%) for the bike option he is being intolerant. You need to look in the mirror. Really look at what you are saying. You will see the image of an intolerant person.


And you???

Funny, way back then (when you used a different alias) I pointed out that we already had some sky bridges over broadway at PSU, over Glisan (at about 160th) several over freeways - and as could be expected, you didn't respond. The sky bridges in Las Vegas are over six or eight (or more) lanes of traffic, obviously the ones that we would need for Burnside wouldn't need to be that large (either length or width). Has ANYONE compared the enormous costs of redoing all the roads and lights and lanes versus the sky bridge idea? Not to my knowledge, certainly not YOU, mirror.

My objection to bike transportation is along the lines of J.K.'s objections - if they want to use it, have them contribute. I would also LOVE to see public transportation pull ALOT more of it's own weight (get rid of 'free square', raise the price of tickets and make it so that if you don't pay, you don't ride). I'm NOT intolerant, I merely wish that my road dollars weren't spent on bikes. I wish bikes paid for what they want and use.

Ya know, no one (especially not Sam) has EVER commented about the fact that light rail (and street cars) cost as much or more than a road, but ONLY people can travel on the rails - versus goods and services as well as people on the roads. Rails have a VERY limited capacity - you can't add cars or too many trains, but with buses I can schedule one every 5 minutes if the need arises. With rail, it only goes where the rails go, with buses I can change routes to accomidate the population instead of trying to get the population to be accomidating to the train.

Thanks Mirror - I looked and I am reaffirmed in the tolerant and clear thinking person that I see; appears to be more than I can say about you.


Heeeellloooo!

You are nuts: Cars get government subsidy beyond calucaltion...do you really think bikes do?


Got any data, or just more

Got any data, or just more hot air?
JK


Deep Thoughts

Roland -

Beyond my previous remark, I have this to say about your posting. While the views that you post have some truth to them, you fail to see/point out the other side. For example, the more time spent getting somewhere (i.e. public transportation, bikes, walking) the less time we have to engage in the activity that we arrived at a location for. When you also have to factor in the extra time it will take to transport yourself back from the distant location, the time you can spend is lessened even more. Example, I wish to go to the art museum, I can drive, which takes me less than an hour, park and go through the museum, get back in my car and be home in less than an hour. Or, I can wait for a bus (or if at a TOD wait for max), which will add from 10 to 30 minutes to my trip (versus jumping in the car - I have to schedule and be there when the 'transportation' arrives). The trip then takes me approximately an hour to get downtown. The walk then takes another 10 to 15 minutes. I now have to factor in the walk time, wait time and max time to get home adding another hour plus to my trip - or in otherwords, cutting down on my time in the museum by an hour or more.

I just used a pleasure trip, but the same applies to business trips.

As for high density, again I disagree. If you have a house with a yard and YOU are responsible for the upkeep of it - you get plenty of exercise. If you live in a high-rise and ALL you have to do for upkeep is change light bulbs and pay your HOA fees, you are getting no exercise what so ever. If you really wanted folks to get exercise we should all live on small plots of land where we care for our own crops and livestock (which is what I'm heading towards in my own life). You want exercise? Try bailing hay for a day, try rounding up the chickens and cows. Try fixing fences, tilling soil. THAT is what mankind was made to do, NOT live in high-rises.

Like I said, your posting cetainly have elements of truth about them, but it is a rather slanted way of looking at things (it doesn't even count those who can not bike or walk, or have great difficulty doing so). To be honest, the day that I live in a high rise will be the day that I can no longer walk without difficulty, so that I will be in close proximity to the medical services that I need. Until then, I really don't like cities in general.


I agree...

Mmmarvel,

You are right- if everyone lived and worked on a farm they would get the exercise they need and would almost certainly eat a lot better, too.

And if there were a movement to go back to the land and it turned out to be economically realistic to do so, I would support it. (Actually, a long term dream of mine has been to work an organic farm somewhere in the Pacific Northwest.)

The only issue with that is that there are a lot of people who don't hold those values and are far more likely to pay for a lawn service to keep their suburban yard trimmed than do anything else.

For these people, living in an area where they can actually walk to get their groceries instead of driving to the costco 15 miles away is a realistic way to get more activity into their day.

I live in a condo and while you are right that I do not do any yardwork (though I do a bit more than just change the lightbulbs), living in an area where I can bike to work and walk to the farmer's market to get what I need for the next couple days DOES keep me a lot more active than I would be otherwise.

I give you a lot of credit if you are able to go back to the land and wish you the best if and when you do it.

But for those more urban-folk (which is a growing portion of the population), the question is how do we keep them active and healthy?

I totally agree with you that the amount of time one spends travelling is important. (That is why living close to where you need/want/like to go is good thing, too...) But frankly, that was not at all the point of my post- I was just publicly pondering the connection between health and transportation and the type of communities we build. And somehow trying to include the amount of time it takes you to get somewhere would not have made a lot of sense in the context of the post.


Time

Good response, a couple of points -

You stated that urban-folks are a growing portion of the population, why? Isn't it because of all the other rules (yes, social engineering) that government has placed on them? With the UGB we force more and more people to HAVE to choose condos if they wish to live within the city limits of Portland. Another way to not have so many urbanites is to truly give people the freedom and right to live where they want - I know, another topic for another time.

Second, you stated that including time within your musings would not have been appropriate. However, what is more valuable than time? Time is money, so the saying goes, but I can always make more money, I can't make more time, time is the one commodity that we all have an unknown but limited amount of. How much of it do we want to spend on the act of travel? Should we spend it that way when there are more efficient (time-wise) ways of getting there?

I understand what you posted, but like I said, you didn't consider all sides of it. It was a slanted posting, and I understand that.

BTW - thanks for the civil conversation unlike the 'other' conversation that I'm engaged in on this topic.


Time is important

... But not more important than health.

And actually, the healthier you are, the more "time" you will really have over the course of your life. That aside, your point is well taken.

As for the comment linking urbanization to the Urban Growth Boundary - ever since the industrial economy really took root in America in the 1800s, there has been a migration away from the countryside and to the cities. This predates the UGB, and has happened in every state - includin g those without a UGB.


Roland: I live in a

Roland: I live in a condo.
JK: Ever consider how much of the price you paid for that condo is because of local government policies?

Here is a source that puts the cost of housing at around double what it should be due to planners:

http://americandreamcoalition.org/penalty.html

If he is correct, those mortgage checks you write every month are twice what they should be.

Thanks
JK


Citations? Any facts?

Use the interest to search for facts to support your point of view. Then cite them in your posts.


To the mirror

When (and if) you EVER bother to actually respond to my comments in a rational way we can have a conversation (for an example you can see how Roland and I have a discussion) - until that point in time it is me talking rationally and you ... well - let me know when you want a conversation.


That would be "no" you have no citations

That would be "no" you have no citations


Two Way Street

Maybe trying to make cities more pedestrian/bike friendly may just be attracting people who are already more likely to be physically active.

Does anyone remember this OSU study called "The Association Between Urban Sprawl and Obesity: Is it a Two-way Street?" which can also be found here: http://www.hhs.oregonstate.edu/faculty-staff/userinfo.php?id=22

"Our results support the hypothesis that BMI is a factor in determining the attributes of an individual’s residential location. In particular, individuals with greater BMI have a higher probability of living in high sprawl counties. In
contrast, we find limited evidence that living in a sprawling county increases BMI. Our results suggest
that the association between sprawl and obesity reported in earlier studies is due largely to self-selection rather than to impacts of the urban environment on physical activity and weight."


hmmm...

That is very interesting... I am sure that this self-selection plays a role in lower urban BMI's as well.

I want to read the study and think about this more... and while I am sure that this contributes to the phenomenon being studied, it still makes intuitive sense that driving vs. walking would both A) be dependent on the kind of place you live and B)affect your overall physical activity level, and therefore weight.


Two Way Street...hmmm

As an urban planner by trade, I found the piece to be very enlightening. And it makes the land use battle/game between the "free market" and the "regulators" that much more fun!


Thanks for this work Roland.

Thanks for this work Roland. I hope it leads Sam to get on the phone to BOM and get bikelanes and bikeways moved up on the leave removal list...these are big dis-incentives to winter riding that PDOT imposes.
And I think you should take a closer look at the Travel Smart and Options Hub data from Portland neighborhoods...a lot of the infrastructure is there, we just don't know about it. Another thing Sam could do is shift more resources into PDOT's Options program and give the bike/walk folks there more management responsibility for projects as well as marketing.


Roland Chlapowski: That is

Roland Chlapowski: That is very interesting... I am sure that this self-selection plays a role in lower urban BMI's as well.
JK: Beware national statistics that include, and are very influenced by, one very unusual area: New York City. I seem to recall that most of the difference goes away if you remove NY’s rather large china town.

How many of these studies are adjusted for ethnicity, income, caloric intake and other relevant factors?

An aside: As I write this the radio just announce that MAX has started running again after an accident at 16th. Bus lines don’t get shut down by an accident. They are also cost much less than light rail. Why does cost of obesity matter, but not cost of mass transit?

Roland Chlapowski: it still makes intuitive sense that driving vs. walking would both A) be dependent on the kind of place you live and B)affect your overall physical activity level, and therefore weight
JK: Now look up how much exercise it takes to burn off one non-diet soda.

Thanks
JK


Please Explain

"3a. A leading cause of obesity is a sedentary lifestyle, and the amount of time you spend in a car is correlated to the likelihood that you are overweight or obese. Conversely, the amount of time you spend walking or bicycling is correlated with a decreased chance that you are overweight or obese."

Correlation does not necessarily mean one thing causes the other. Only one of those studies listed above says anything about the built environment being a predictor of obesity--and it doesn't even go as far as to say the built environment causes obesity.

What is the point of using these data as a platform to encourage mass transit and density? Aren't there other, more compelling reasons?


dont ask dumb questions

Dont ask if those studies control for race, income, diet, etc, when he posted the full studies he cited at the bottom of his post!!

READ THEM - don't ask dumb questions that you could easily answer if you just read what was posted, you rightwing, reactionary, freemarket ideologue twit (whom I guess is without a conscience).

I think it is also pretty funny that you came out and said Roland's data was wrong from the get-go, while you obviously didn't even read the studies and data that you were against.

It is that sort of thing - having an answer in mind for every question, and then finding data to fit into your worldview- that makes your hot air about being "fact based" just what it is - HOT AIR.

Let me know when you decide to go into a public discussion without already being fully biased.

Until then, I am not listening, and even though you clog this blog with your biased crap, I know that other people are not going to either.


don't obfuscate the clear

This isn't rocket science.

Everyone pretty much agrees that regular exercise is one of two factors in being healthy. The other is a healthy diet.

People who walk or bike regularly get regular exercise.
You could look it up.

Don't get distracted by correlation-causation statistical diversion that has been used to promote smoking, global warming, etc. etc.


Obfuscate

"Don't get distracted by correlation-causation statistical diversion that has been used to promote smoking, global warming, etc. etc."

Actually, it's ignoring the studies that has created a diversion from the ill effects of smoking and global warming.

If the goal is to make people healthier by improving the built environment, great, then let's see the data showing that dense urban centers make people healthier.

If the goal is to push dense urban centers by convincing people that it's good for their health, then maybe it's okay to rely on anecdotal evidence...but that’s a bit like propaganda.


Jesse O: Everyone pretty

Jesse O: Everyone pretty much agrees that regular exercise is one of two factors in being healthy. The other is a healthy diet.

People who walk or bike regularly get regular exercise.
JK: That is not the issue at hand. The issue is whether the burbs or heigh density ghettos cause obesity.

Of course, it really should be about general health, not just one aspect. For instance, I have the impression that epidemics such a small pox tends to travel between apartments, but not between single family homes. (If you can smell the neighbor’s smoke or cooking, you are exchanging air which can carry airborne pathogens.)

I would guess that transit riders get more colds and flu because of being jammed, like sardines, for an hour or so each day, against other riders who may be sick.

Thanks
JK


Smallpox!!??!

Jim, come now!

If you want to talk about "general health," obesity (the #1 and still fastest growing cause of morbidity and mortality) should certainly get much, much, MUCH more attention than smallpox, which has been eradicated from the US, for all intents and purposes.

And I also beg to differ with your assertion that this is not about exercise. That's exactly what it's about- and how where one lives influences how much of it they get.

If you weight all of the different causes of mortality and morbidity, inactivity and obesity would almost certainly get the most emphasis, since it is now the number one killer in America.


Roland Chlapowski: If you

Roland Chlapowski: If you want to talk about "general health," obesity (the #1 and still fastest growing cause of morbidity and mortality)
JK: I thought that had recently been re-evaluated and the CDC (or whoever) decided it is not nearly as dangerous as previously thought.

Roland Chlapowski: should certainly get much, much, MUCH more attention than smallpox, which has been eradicated from the US, for all intents and purposes.
JK: Actually eradicated world wide. It only exists in a few high security labs now. I used it as an example. Feel free to substitute ANY airborne pathogen in my example. Influenza pandemic?

Roland Chlapowski: And I also beg to differ with your assertion that this is not about exercise. That's exactly what it's about- and how where one lives influences how much of it they get.
JK: Exercise is only one side of the BMI equation. Intake is the other. Further the difference in weight is quite small, if I recall. I will make it point to check the video on that subject from Portland’s American Dream Conference and get back to you.

Roland Chlapowski: If you weight all of the different causes of mortality and morbidity, inactivity and obesity would almost certainly get the most emphasis, since it is now the number one killer in America.
JK: Source please.

But the really big, over-reaching argument is that few people want to live in high density. That is why big cities are generally much less dense that 100 years ago.

Same for transit: At a time when the USA had the best transit system that it ever had, it took just a few years for people to switch over to cars in the 1920s & 1930s. Nowdays, small cars even use less energy than buses per passenger-mile.

Thanks
JK


You are right

Jim,

I looked into it and you are right- the CDC scaled back its initial estimate of 400,000 obesity-attributable deaths a year, and in doing so agreed that smoking was (again) the number one cause of death in America.

I based my statement on a source that was wrong on that issue. Thanks for catching me on that.

-Roland


This is pretty weak logic to justify your pet project.

OK, I like the idea of selling us on biking as being something to extend our lives. Let's go a little further:

AIDS is a known cause of death. Can you act on a tax reduction for monogamous people and work on closing some clubs where people have unprotected sex in town?

We know genetics determines lifespan. Can we get a tax break to people who mate with others to produce long-lived people who reduce society's health care burden and discourage those who may not be genetically superior to not breed?

Oh wait, I am being ridiculous - Just like using life extension as a justification for building bike lanes. It is a tenuous connection at best.

In addition, if we are really worried about living longer lives, then lets give people who know something about health (like doctors) tax money and let CoP can focus on things like, oh say, opening jail space, filling potholes, delivering utilities at a reasonable cost and doing so at a minimum burden (i.e. lower taxes) to the people who pay your salaries - the taxpayers.

BTW - I heard better health care and higher income correlates with longer life, so I am skipping my property taxes to buy more doctor visits.


Right-winger garboly goop

I think Roland has you right-wingers on the ropes this time...You didn't even touch him with your pedantic replies.


Obese Spending

I am far more concerned and offended about the obesity and abuse of tax dollars being spent to subsidize bicycling, transit, high density development, and to exercise socialistic control over people lives than I am about what a diversity of individuals, making their own selections, choose to eat, if they drive, or what kind of housing they choose for their personal lifestyle.


Terry, You always fashion

Terry,

You always fashion your arguments about how this or that is "socialism." Yet, you do not walk your own talk.

Will you pledge to never to take advantage of a public subsidy to pay for anything you use in your life?

Will you pledge to pay for all your medical costs out of your own pocket and never sign up for health insurance?

Signed,

Subjectivity Police


Subjectivity Police: Will

Subjectivity Police: Will you pledge to never to take advantage of a public subsidy to pay for anything you use in your life?
JK: It is hard to avoid, but most people try to avoid being a burden on others, while people like you appear to advocate that people become more dependant on welfare like public transit. Just a reminder: it was auto “dependent” people who got out of New Orleans. Transit dependent were left on the bridges. Is that what you want to repeat here?

Subjectivity Police: Will you pledge to pay for all your medical costs out of your own pocket and never sign up for health insurance?
JK: Insurance is not a subsidy - it is a voluntary pooling of risk. Please learn the basics before you accuse others.

Thanks
JK


The answer isnt to make

The answer isnt to make everyone auto dependent but to improve bublic transit in the city.


Transit already sucks up

Transit already sucks up over $1/2 BILLION annually. It would take many times that to "fix it."

Small cars are cheaper and more energy efficient. And probably less polluting.

PS: You are advocating being transit dependent and therefore dependent on others for 80% of you transportation costs. Welfare.

Thanks
JK


But out Mr. Car-a-lot...

...I was talking to Terry.


So your answer is "no" ...

...you will continue to defend the public subsidies you use and support and criticize others for the public subsidies they use and support: H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E.


Socialism vs the American Way

When the government attempts to control the lifestyles of the people, as does the City of Portland and Metro through tax codes with tax abatement programs, not taxing the bicycle mode of transport to pay for bicycle infrastructure and subsidizing mass transit to the tune of 80% plus as but three examples, this is socialism.

As for framing my comments in a socialistic nature, this was started when posts on this blog started calling paying one’s own way libertarianism instead of the American way of working for and earning what you have.


No so fast, Terry "Parking-lot" Parker

Terry, this is your convious talking to you: I just did a little search of this site and found that, yes, you threw the "socialism" rock before anyone said anything about you being a "right-winger" or a "Libertarian," which you are both. Now, go to excercise.


offended?

Offended is a pretty powerful word. You're by that in contrast to the bazillion other things you could be offended by? It is not that your argument lacks merit, it is that your single message and strident tone is, well, offensive.

Look around. There are plenty of other things to be more offended by than some bikes and the limited amount of money that could be gained by taxing those scofflaws. You want to talk about waste? If you are sincere and not a blowhard then there are a few other corners you might look around first.

Socialstic control? Ever been to a socialist country? When your tone=level headedness, your message might start to get traction. In the meantime it sounds like misplaced anger.


Why I like Bike lanes

The reason I moved to Portland was because I wanted to live in a town where there were multiple modes of transit, even though I drive frequently. My reasoning for supporting light rail, busses, bike lanes?

1) Because I dont want to have to drive everytime I leave my house. Sometimes I want to bike to the store and Clinton Street/Woodard makes that a snap, sometimes I want to get some excersize before drinking those carb-laden micro brews, sometimes I want to get loaded and take the bus.

2) Because poor people drive crappy cars, and often don't have insurance. A good transit system gives them options to get to school/work that dont involve keeping some pre 74 smog factory on the road. Fewer un-insured drivers make the roads safer.

3) Because if other people take public transit then there are fewer cars on the road, which means my trip goes faster, I will pay for that.

4) because even if I am not a bike commuter, I enjoy having bike lanes available when the weather is nice, it adds to Portlands Quality of Life.

Look all you car-only folks, you want to see the logical extension of your planning philosphy? Go to Houston, which is without a doubt the ugliest, most polluted city in the country. Sure houses are cheap, there is lots of industry but it sucks! I don't want to live there, which is why I vote for people like Sam Adams when they run for office. Don't like living with people who want a livable city? Move to Houston.


Duncan: 1) Because I dont

Duncan: 1) Because I dont want to have to drive everytime I leave my house. Sometimes I want to bike to the store and Clinton Street/Woodard makes that a snap,
JK: OK, all we ask is that you pay your own way, like cars do.

Duncan: A good transit system gives them options to get to school/work
JK: Not really, because transit only serves downtown well and that is not where the majority of jobs are anymore. (Planners still act as though the jobs are still downtown, because most planners are living in the past.) A car allows a wider choice of jobs, in a given commute time, and therefore increases your choices as to which job to take. This results in a real increase in the standard of living.

Duncan: 3) Because if other people take public transit then there are fewer cars on the road, which means my trip goes faster, I will pay for that.
JK: You are wasting your money, because transit’s market share is too small to make any difference except to downtown.

Duncan: 4) because even if I am not a bike commuter, I enjoy having bike lanes available when the weather is nice, it adds to Portlands Quality of Life.
JK: How nice for you. Now please offer to pay for those lanes, including the pavement under them.

Duncan: Look all you car-only folks, you want to see the logical extension of your planning philosphy? Go to Houston, which is without a doubt the ugliest, most polluted city in the country. Sure houses are cheap, there is lots of industry but it sucks!
JK: Lets see, affordable housing and lots of jobs and you think it sucks. That proves it: you’re a planner.

Duncan: Don't like living with people who want a livable city?
JK: Portland used to have some of the most affordable housing in the nation, little traffic congestion and lots of good jobs. All of that was turned around by planners. They are destroying Portland’s livability.

Duncan: Move to Houston.
JK: He newcomer, if you don’t like Portland the way it was before you came to town get out of here - you jerk. And take the planners with you.

Thanks
JK


Oh, yea, according to Jim Karlock, Portland is the only...

...town in the USA with housing cost increases and congestion...hmmm...yes, it's our planning that made us so bad...that is why so many cities bring delegations to Portland to see what we are up to...


Jim Car-a-lot yes, it's our

Jim Car-a-lot yes, it's our planning that made us so bad...that is why so many cities bring delegations to Portland to see what we are up to.
JK: Do they tell the delegations about abating over $20 million in property taxes to encourage development? (Annual figure)
Do they tell the delegations about keeping over $60 million in urban renewal area property taxes in the UR districts while the rest of the city has to pay for their basic services? (Annual figure)
Do they tell the delegations about subsidizing housing for people who make more than the median family income?
Do they tell the delegations about cutting back police due to tight money.
Do they tell the delegations about Portland having one of the higher unemployment rates in the country?
Do they tell the delegations about losing housing afford ability?
Do they tell the delegations about Portland recently having the nation’s worst increase in traffic congestion?
Do they tell the delegations about almost having the shortest school year in the country?
Do they tell the delegations about light rail having a death rate three times higher than bus?
Do they tell the delegations about not knowing what the streetcar costs per passenger mile?
Do they tell the delegations about selling land to developers below its real value?
Do they tell the delegations about the tram costing 7 times its original estimate?
Do they tell the delegations about the tram being over budget AGAIN?
Do they tell the delegations about buses using more energy than small cars?
Do they tell the delegations about major employers leaving the city?
Do they tell the delegations about the shortage of land for new jobs?
Do they tell the delegations about the shortage of land for living space?

Hey, Terry, Stevescare, Adron, etc: Please add to this list so we can start telling the truth about Portland on a new web site dedicated to the subject, like saveporltand does for the tax freeloaders.

Thanks
JK


Oops JK

Oops
JK


Yes, they do...

All of what you cite has been in the newspapers...enjoying your auto subsidy today, Jim.


What auto subsidy? Got any

What auto subsidy?
Got any facts, or just more hot air. (Actually, I'll admit to up to 5% auto subsidy based on reliable verbal sources: case of most people subsidizing most people as opposed to transit which is most people subsidizing a tiny minority)

It is transit that is 81% subsidized in Portland.
JK


JIM KARLOCK ADMITS HIS NUMBERS ARE WRONG!!!!!

Jim Karlock begins to admit he is wrong!

Remember his earlier pompous yet totally self-confident statement:

"Cars pay their own way in Portland."

This is how Jim, Terry “Parking-lot” Parker, and mmarvell, Steve and their ilk think!

NOW, HE BEGINS TO BACKTRACK IN THE ABOVE COMMENT,

"Actually, I'll admit to up to 5% auto subsidy based on reliable verbal sources..."

WOW!!!!!

Jim, the first step to sanity begins with admitting you have a problem. You have taken that important step.

Now, Mr. Jim "Car-a-lot" Karlock, this still is your conscious speaking...you keep thinking about it...are you sure about that 5% number?

Hmmm...

But while you think about it...let's use your number for now…

When you apply a 5% auto subsidy (again, your number) against how many cars there are on the road, how many roads and bridges there are...

Maybe that’s a REALLY, REALLY big amount of cash subsidy for the car?

DO YOU THINK!?

Jim, and don't now backtrack and try and say that cars do not get the same level of subsidy as transit or bikes or peds. Becuase when you factor in all the costs that cars drivers DO NOT pay, the total car subsidy is in the stratosphere compared to transit or bikes or peds.

Mr. Jim "Car-a-lot" Karlock: you have been hoisted with your own prejudices and cockiness, BUT YOUR CREDIBILITY IS SHOT, KAPUTE, GONE, CHAO.

I have seen NO comments on this site criticizing the plentiful auto subsidy in this city or nation.

However, I do see you, Terry “Parking-lot” Parker, mmarvell, Steve and your right-wing, libertarian ilk spew hatred (really, that is what is comes off as) at bikes and transit because both, too, get subsidized JUST LIKE THE CAR.

H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E-S.


Some twit claiming to be

Some twit claiming to be Jim Karlock's concious: Jim Karlock begins to admit he is wrong!
Remember his earlier pompous yet totally self-confident statement:
"Cars pay their own way in Portland."
JK:, I am not wrong. Cars do pay their own way in Portland.
The subsidy of up to 5% was nationally. (Cities and states vary, but you probably aren’t smart enough to realize that without being told.)

In terms of subsidy per passenger mile (that is the goat to move passengers some distance) the subsidy to transit is many times that of the auto.

Some twit claiming to be Jim Karlock's concious: Jim, and don't now backtrack and try and say that cars do not get the same level of subsidy as transit or bikes or peds.
JK:,

Some twit claiming to be Jim Karlock's concious:
I have seen NO comments on this site criticizing the plentiful auto subsidy in this city or nation.
JK:, Absolute dollars don’t count. A million dollar subsidy spread over 300 million people is trivial while a million dollar subsidy to one person is an outrage. Transit is that one person.

Some twit claiming to be Jim Karlock's concious: However, I do see you, Terry “Parking-lot” Parker, mmarvell, Steve and your right-wing,
JK:, Don’t call me right wing you commie twit.

Some twit claiming to be Jim Karlock's concious: bikes and transit because both, too, get subsidized JUST LIKE THE CAR.
JK:, Cars don’t get subsidized in Portland. See above.

Thanks
JK



Oh no, Jim "C ar-a-lot" Karlock Takes a Step Backwards...

...that happens on the road to recovery sometimes. So, I'll pose some questions, consider them your baby steps towards reality...

YOU: "I am not wrong. Cars do pay their own way in Portland. The subsidy of up to 5% was nationally. (Cities and states vary, but you probably aren’t smart enough to realize that without being told.)"

OK, I really, really am smart enough to have this conversation with you, Mr. Jim "Car-a-lot" Karlock, aside from state or local auto subsidies (we will set aside your statement that, "Cars do pay their own way in Portland" for a moment, what are the federal subsidies related to autos that are not paid for by auto user fees or taxes?

The answer is just a few Google searches from your finger tips...


You are debating words, not

You are debating words, not facts. You are finding meaning where there is none. Lets get back to the simple facts:
Portland DOES NOT subsidize the automobile.
The rest of the country MAY have some minor subsidy for automobiles, around 5% or so.

For comparison, Trimet’s subsidy is 80%.
Transit subsidies well above 50% are frequent around the country.

You can also look at the dollars:

Trimet total budget (data from Trimet & 02-03 report from Multnomah county Tax Supervising and Conservation Commission as used at saveportland.com/Car_Vs_Tri-Met/energy-cost-death-02d.htm) :
Total subsidy is about $.90 per passenger mile, total system. If you add in the construction cost of the toy train, the cost becomes $1.42 per passenger mile.

Lets assume that same level of subsidy existed for motor cars and trucks:
There were 2,749,000,000,000 vehicle-miles in the USA in 2002 (National Transportation Statistics 2002, Table 1-32)
Now multiply that by the level of subsidy for Trimet:
$1.42 per passenger-mile x 2,749,803,000,000 vehicle-miles x 1.5 passengers/vehicle = $5,855,000,000,000

Since you claim all these subsidies, lets compare the subsidy for motor cars & trucks, if it were as great as the transit subsidy, to the federal budget:

The total Federal spending was 2,292,000,000,000 dollars in 2004 (whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2006/tables.html)

Looks like to subsidize motor cars and trucks to the same level as transit, it would take TWICE the Federal budget, or probably around ALL of ALL government spending in the country.

I think, at this point, any rational person can conclude that the motor cars & trucks are not subsidized as much as transit. Further the ratio between the two subsidies is almost certainly over 10 to 1.

Why don’t you crawl back into your anonymous little hole now.

I would, however, like to thank you for inspiring me to compare the transit subsidy required to totally replace cars with total government spending to show just how ridiculous your postulate is.

Thanks
JK


Portland Auto Subsidy: $250 million at minimum

Darn, I thought we had a real break through going in getting you towards sanity.

So, you are sticking with your statement that, "Portland DOES NOT subsidize the automobile."

Nobody denies that transit and bikes and pedestrian infrastructure is subsidized.

The question is whether or not you are correct when you write that Portland does not subsidize the automobile.

It does is many, many ways. I'll give you just two examples that can be found at www.portlandonline.com:

1. Tax Increment Financing: $200 million over the past five years to build new streets and roads in Portland. Tax Increment Financing is property-based public financing, having nothing to do with automobile usage other than to subsidize it.

2. Street Lighting Fund: $25 million over 5 years to pay the electric bill for Portland's street lights. This money comes from the General Fund of City government, having nothing to do with automobile usage other than to subsidize it.

That is $225 million over five years, and it’s just the tip of the iceberg, Mr. Jim "Car-a-lot" Karlock.

I look forward to another one of your obfuscating replies.


Jim I'll give you just two

Jim I'll give you just two examples that can be found at www.portlandonline.com:
JK: Please give a link to the page in question.

Thanks
JK


Still waiting for that link.

Still waiting for that link.


Two More

Do they tell the delegations (and the public) about all the money (millions of dollars off budget, grants, Metro programs, etc.) that is spent to subsidize bicycle infrastructure while hiding PDOT's bicycle budget figures.

Do they tell the delegations the bicycle mode of transport is not taxed to help pay for bicycle infrastructure.


Correction

hiding behind PDOT's budget figures.


Another Half Dozen

Do they tell the delegations about all the pot holes in city streets because motorist paid transportation tax dollars are being diverted to pay for curb extensions and bicycle infrastructure instead of street maintenance.

Do they tell the delegations how when busses stop for passengers at curb extensions it creates unnecessary congestion that increases the overall fuel consumption for motorists.

Do they tell the delegations how large trucks on some streets must now drive over the sidewalks when making turns due to curb extensions.

Do they tell the delegations about how Portland’s planning efforts are causing the gentrification of families and driving them to live in the suburbs.

Do they tell the delegations about the decline in school enrollment in the Portland School District while the suburban districts can hardly keep up with enrollment growth.

Do they tell the delegations how the downtown economy is totally subsidized with tax dollars and not market based.


Thanks Keep up the good

Thanks
Keep up the good work.

JK


You, two, should get a room...

...your selfless, self-congratulations have all the depth of sound and support of one hand clapping.


Roland...

If public subsidy of mass transit and density is supposed to keep us thin, then why has public subsidy of America's poor made them fat?

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/living/health/14649129.htm

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2004/10/20049235.shtml

http://www.wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=5339578&nav=8fap

Face it, the more the public subsidizes a project, the worse that project becomes.


Hmmm...maybe all the junk food had something to do with it...

...I don't know...